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ROB LOREI: Good afternoon, welcome to "Radio Activity", I’m Robert Lorei. In a moment we’ll hear a spokesperson for the Church of Scientology respond to an interview that we carried last Thursday. But first, some listener comments first about yesterday’s documentary about the Ku Klux Klan. Here’s what some listeners had to say:
[snip listener comment about KKK]
ERIC (listener, leaving phone message): Hello, Rob, this is Eric. I enjoyed very much your interview with the man who was the former Scientologist. For the upcoming, um, pro-Scientology interview, I just thought that some of what the other guy mentions was somewhat problematic in the way that, that this auditing, so-called, is psychotherapy of Scientology. I’d like to just understand if, in your coming interview if you could somewhat just explore the issue of licensure for psychotherapy. Usually in this state, it’s a regulated profession with the Department of Business and Professional Regulations. Are these people licensed by that bureau? If not, why not? If they’re not, are they indictable and convictable for practicing without a license psychotherapy and if they can reveal people’s innermost secrets revealed in psychotherapy at least within the--publicly in a certain way within the Scientology community, it’s bound to leak out even into the general community, seeing that that’s illegal. Such records are usually very closely held and, uh, there has to be special from the patient himself to release these things.
ROB LOREI: Well, there you have some listener comments. Last Thursday on this show, we carried an interview with an ex-member of the Church of Scientology who made some serious charges against the church, that it was an intelligence organization, that its founder lied about his background, that it held some people against their will, that it operated a slave-like operation called the RPF and that lying and cheating was tolerated in the church as long as it furthered the goals of the Church of Scientology. Here to respond to those charges and tell us more is Pat Jones, a spokesperson for the Church of Scientology. Pat, welcome to WMNF, thanks for coming by
PAT JONES: Thanks, Rob.
ROB LOREI: Um, you heard the interview. I guess the best place to start is, what is Scientology and how long has it been a religion?
PAT JONES: Um, Scientology and the Church of Scientology, um, is an applied religious philosophy. Um, we believe that man is a spiritual being and that he is seeking to survive. And the philosophy of Scientology lays out certain tools that helps a person to increase his awareness of a--as a spiritual being and helps him to better relate with others, um, around him and so forth.
ROB LOREI: How many members does the church have?
PAT JONES: The church has about eight million members worldwide. There are anywhere over 2,000 churches, missions and groups all over the world. Um, Dianetics, which preceded Scientology, um, is now translated into 52 languages and is still being used and forms the basis for, um, what is called auditing in Scientology which they refer to, which is Scientology religious counseling.
ROB LOREI: Um-hmm. Now you said a moment ago, um, that it is an applied religious philosophy. Is that the same thing as a religion?
PAT JONES: Oh, absolutely. Um, many religious scholars have studied Scientology and recognize why it is a religion. Um, courts across this country have recognized that Scientology is a religion. It is my religion so I can speak from the personal perspective. I have been a Scientologist since 1979, and I practice the Scientology religious philosophy, so I know it is a religion! [starts chuckling]
ROB LOREI: Uh, the dictionary says that, uh, religion is the belief in a supernatural power. Do you believe in a supernatural power?
PAT JONES: We certainly believe that there is a Creator. Um, and--now I do have to tell you that we do not dictate to a person how they would worship that power or how they would worship the Creator. That is left up to the individual. Um, now in comparing Scientology, I think the closest religion that you could compare it to is Buddhism, where you’re actually learning certain things that are going to help you to increase your spiritual awareness. And as you increase that spiritual awareness, you will understand better what the Creator is all about, and you will have a better relationship with the Creator and with others in this universe.
ROB LOREI: The religion was founded by L. Ron Hubbard.
PAT JONES: The religious philosophy of Scientology was founded by L. Ron Hubbard. Um, the church was incorporated by friends, by people who wanted to utilize the religious philosophy and came together as a group.
ROB LOREI: Um, he founded this idea. Did he found it as a religion or did he simply write a book about how to do your own self-psychiatry or self-psychotherapy?
PAT JONES: Well, let me just back up a minute. We’re definitely--this is an applied religious philosophy. It believes that man is a spiritual being. Psychotherapy says that man is an animal. We are completely at odds with that theory. Um, they use drugs to, um, for the mind and we believe that the drugs that are used in psychotherapy and psychiatry are harmful to the spiritual being so we are anything but that. We deal strictly with the person as a spiritual being.
ROB LOREI: Um-hmm. Did--did L. Ron Hubbard decide one day that he was gonna start a religion or did he decide, I mean--since it wasn’t a religion from the beginning, it, it--what year did it become a religion?
PAT JONES: Well, in 1953, as I said, there were some friends, people who were utilizing the Scientology religious philosophy who decided to incorporate as a church because of the spiritual aspect, because the--what was occurring at that time. Now, if I can back up a little bit--you would have to get the scenario. In 1950, this book came out, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, and what it dealt with is the mind and how the mind, how--actually, what was happening is how the spirit influences the mind, uses the mind, what happens with the mind, and it was--it’s considered the owner’s manual of the mind. And it became hugely popular. I mean, it took everybody by storm. As more and more people utilized Dianetics, the religious philosophy of Scientology, uh, came to the fore. Because you are dealing with a spiritual being, because they were running into things like, you know, past lives and what that all meant. And you are delving into something that deals with the age-old secrets that man has, you know, been looking into. So you’re--you’re dealing with a relatively new religion, obviously, and, um, a 20th century religion.
ROB LOREI: Um, L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, um, and his contemporaries, um, some of whom have been on this show--Ben Bova and others--have said that Ron in the 40’s and early 50’s said that, uh, if you really wanted to make money in this country, uh, you wouldn’t write science fiction, you’d start a religion.
PAT JONES: Well, that again is one of those things, those outrageous claims, that just gets attributed to somebody because they happen to be around at that time. Um, Mr. Hubbard did not say that and, um, that was certainly not what he needed to do because he was an extremely prolific writer and didn’t just write science fiction, but wrote every single thing in the fiction genre and, um, you know, that’s how he funded his research into the mind. He was busy working on the mind, writing books, he was extremely prolific, very productive and quite a genius, actually. In everything that he did, he was a complete professional. So he not only was writing books, he was doing script writing for, um, film at the time. He was an avid photographer, had hundred of cameras and took, you know, lots of pictures. He was an explorer. He lived life to the fullest and he was a wealthy man, he made his money by writing books.
ROB LOREI: The--the highest level, or one of the highest levels, of the Church of Scientology is to become an Operating Thetan. Um, is it free? Can I--can I become an Operating Thetan for free?
PAT JONES: Well, let me just explain that. Being an Operating Thetan means that--a thetan is a spiritual being, that’s the Scientological word for, um, the spiritual being. Now, we gave it that, um, term to differentiate it from anything else. And "operating" just means that you’re operating as a spiritual being without influence of your body. So that’s what that means. Now, I know what you’re referring to when you start talking about whether it’s free or not. Um, there are many things in Scientology that are free. You know, a person can go and pick up the book What Is Scientology?, for example, in any library or, you know, they can go and buy it for a few dollars, you know. Um, there are Scientology counseling, um, you know, processes and so forth that are free in Scientology. So it depends on what you want to do, you know, it’s totally up to you how you want to do it. When you’re dealing with a professional--
ROB LOREI: Could--
PAT JONES: --auditing--
ROB LOREI: All right, I didn’t mean to interrupt, but could I become an Operating Thetan by not spending any money, not giving any money to the church?
PAT JONES: Yes, you could.
ROB LOREI: Okay, I could--I could--
PAT JONES: Yes--
ROB LOREI: --go to the top level without paying any money.
PAT JONES: Yes, you could.
ROB LOREI: Okay.
PAT JONES: Yes, you could, and, um--now there is one other thing that, that was said earlier which I do need to address because that’s, you know, some very egregious claims by Gerry Armstrong, and I’ll address Gerry Armstrong later, but, um, when it comes to what is divulged in Scientology spiritual counseling, that is confidential; it’s priest-penitent, it’s--it’s covered by this, it’s covered by our code which is called the Auditor’s Code. It is something that every Scientology minister is sworn to uphold. Gerry Armstrong is lying. That is never, ever done in Scientology. And not only is he lying but I want to say that he’s being paid to lie. [starts chuckling] So, um, here you have a person who fled this country to avoid, um, a bench warrant for his arrest, who was charged by a judge and ordered to pay $600,000 to the Church of Scientology for violating its rights, for stealing its materials, and he filed for bankruptcy to avoid those charges and not--and then accepted money to come out and say these things. So--and he’s been paid hundred of thousands of dollars to do this. So--
ROB LOREI: And do you have the proof of that?
PAT JONES: Yes, we have the proof of it and I can show it to you. I brought--
ROB LOREI: Okay--
PAT JONES: --some stuff with me right here on his injunctions and his being paid and who’s paying him and so forth.
ROB LOREI: Okay, let’s get to that in a moment. Let me just clear up something. How does one become an Operating Thetan without spending any money, uh, in the church?
PAT JONES: Well, for example, I am a staff member of the church and I do not pay for my counseling. That is something that I get as a staff member. So that is one way to do it. Um, and that is basically the way that you would do it, by, you know, being part of the group that is doing something about, you know, what we’re trying to--trying to achieve those goals; that is one way that you would do it.
ROB LOREI: Now, last week, uh, Gerry Armstrong, who you referred to a moment ago, was on here. He was an ex-member of the church who was in from 1969 to 1981 and was very critical of the church. One of the things that he said about staff members is that, uh, they’re--many staff members are in essence exploited, that they’re paid very little money. He said that his W2 form showed that he was paid far less than the minimum wage when he was on staff. Are you paid less than the minimum wage as a staff person?
PAT JONES: Well, yeah, let me just answer [laughs] that question because, um, Gerry mentioned that he’s part of the Sea Organization, which is a fraternal organization within the Church of Scientology and is the top dedicated Scientologists who have decided to dedicate their lives to, um, you know, seeing that Scientology continues and that people know more about it and so forth. I don’t do it for the money! [starts laughing] Okay? And I do it because this is my religion, this is what I believe in and this is why I do it. So I get a small stipend and in addition to that my room, you know, my food, my medical expenses are taken care of, my clothes are taken care of. Okay? But again I just want to reiterate, it is not for the money. So when you sign a contract or when you decide that this is what you want to do, you have made a conscious decision that this is what you want to do. And you know exactly what it’s gonna take.
ROB LOREI: So you get paid less than the minimum wage but, because you believe so deeply in this, that’s okay.
PAT JONES: Yeah. That’s totally fine. And again, you know, you have to look at the other things, too, that come with that. Um, not only that but, you know, the food, the room and board, the clothes, the medical and, in addition to, you know, studying the Scientology religion and the other counseling that you get at the same time. These are things that, again, you’re not doing it for yourself; you’re doing it as part of a group and for what I believe is gonna help mankind. And, you know, that is part of the religion and that is part of what a lot of religions do [chuckles].
ROB LOREI: Pat Jones is our guest and she is a spokesperson for the Church of Scientology. You work at the spiritual headquarters in Clearwater?
PAT JONES: That’s right.
ROB LOREI: And how long have you been the spokesperson?
PAT JONES: Um, it’s about two years now. I came here from Washington, D.C., where I was the president of the Founding Church there in Washington, D.C., and I have been on staff in D.C. since, um, 1984.
ROB LOREI: Um-hmm. Um, one of the other things that, uh, Gerry mentioned last week was that, uh, in writing--in helping to write the biography of L. Ron Hubbard, he went back and looked at, uh, the original papers--his original military records, his original education records--and found that Mr. Hubbard lied about, um, his military experience and his educational experience, and that’s when he began to have problems with the Church of Scientology.
PAT JONES: Well, again, you know, Gerry Armstrong is not to be believed. I brought some things here with me with some documents from people showing that he, um, you know, was in the Navy and, you know, what his educational background is and so forth. And I do want to, you know, I do want to say that there is one thing to point out. When you’re talking to a person like Gerry Armstrong, who was part of the religion and has now left, what is now--what is called an apostate, you’re talking to somebody who’s gonna be highly critical of what he just left. I brought here an expertise from Dr. Lonnie Kliever, who’s a professor of religious studies at Southern Methodist University and he, he terms this the reliability apostate testimony about religious movements, and he says that there are some voluntary apostates from new religious movements who leave deeply embittered and harshly critical of their former religious associations and activities. Their dynamics of separation from a once-loved religious group is analogous to an embittered marital separation and divorce. Both marriage and religion require a significant degree of commitment. The greater the involvement, the more traumatic the break-up; the longer the commitment, the more urgent the need to blame the other for the failed relationship. And he goes on, I mean, it’s all about this. This is something that’s been studied. Um, so you’re--you know, I just want to point out why. Now you’re dealing with somebody who owes the church $600,000. In fact, he--I heard the show; he said he was violating his injunction and is being paid to make these outrageous claims--
ROB LOREI: He, he--
PAT JONES: --about the church.
ROB LOREI: He did say that he was violating an injunction that the church had won against him. I didn’t hear him say that he was, um, being paid. But you say you’ve got some documents saying that he was being paid. Why don’t you pull out those documents and, and tell me, um, uh, how much he’s being paid and where you got these documents from. We’re talking about the Church of Scientology. In a little bit, we’ll open up the phone lines; our phone number is 813-239-9663, that’s 813-239-9663. Pat Jones is our guest and she’s a spokesperson. Pat, go ahead.
PAT JONES: Well, um, right here I have a transcript from, um, a case in which, uh, Gerald Armstrong was deposed, and in this deposition, um, they were talking about the fact that this gentleman by the name of Robert Minton, who, um, has decided to, uh, campaign against the church, as you will, paid him. He says, "Has Mr. Minton given you any money?" and Gerald Armstrong says, "Yes". "And how much money has Mr. Minton given you?" "He gave me 75,000 for litigation in Nevada." "Anything else?" "And he gave me 25,000 for various things including my moving to Nevada and the moving of all my records, files and personal belongings." "90,000?" "Right, and 75,000 was for the lawyer in Nevada and 25,000 for myself." And he goes on. Um, you know--
ROB LOREI: Twenty-five--I’m sorry--25,000 was for Mr. Armstrong and 75,000 was for, for his attorney.
PAT JONES: Yeah, and that’s--
ROB LOREI: Okay--
PAT JONES: No, no, for his--for litigation--
ROB LOREI: For litigation--
PAT JONES: To come out and say--
ROB LOREI: Uh-huh--
PAT JONES: --and make these claims. Now, you know, I don’t want to dwell too much on Gerry Armstrong because that’s just one minute part of what I really want to deal with. I am here because I want to say that I am a member of the Church of Scientology, and this is my church, you know, and there’s a certain defense to that but, you know, I’m trying to defend it in a certain way, but yet, I’m--you’re talking to somebody who does find Scientology successful for them and, you know, to put it in perspective, there are these other eight million people who find Scientology is, is great for them. Um, in the What Is Scientology? book, there are hundreds of testimonials from Scientologists from all walks of life who say that Scientology works for them. Um, that it didn’t work for Gerald Armstrong is fine; he’s no longer a part of the church and so forth, and again he’s being paid to make these outrageous claims. But I’m here to testify [chuckles] that the church works for me and, you know, I really want to say that.
ROB LOREI: Okay. Well, that’s fine and I’m glad you’re here to say this. Uh, Pat Jones is our guest. Uh, one of the things that, uh, Gerry Armstrong pointed out last week in, in the interview was that he had no quarrel with the beliefs, but he had a quarrel with the practices of some church members, especially higher up. One of the things that he said was that, uh, that the church tries to protect itself in all ways, and it will lie and cheat to protect itself. Does, does the church ever lie? Does the church ever mislead people?
PAT JONES: Okay. This--again, you’re talking about Gerald Armstrong, who is lying and who is cheating and who, like I said, has injunctions against him and owes the church $600,000. Um, as a church, we have certain morals, and we have a moral code, and that moral code says no, you seek to live with the truth. And that’s why I had to say something today, because I want people to know what the truth is. And we do have high ethical standards. Some people, when they become part of the group, cannot maintain those standards, and that’s where you--they get into problems. But certainly what we are about is about truth and we are seeking to tell the truth. So that’s what I can say, and I’m here to [chuckling]say that.
ROB LOREI: Is the policy of Fair Game still in, in force in the church in that you’re allowed to do whatever to critics as long as it maintains, uh, the, uh, strength of the church? That you could use any tactics against critics?
PAT JONES: Okay, that Fair Game, one, is cancelled, number two, was taken out of context to begin with. And, you know, it’s definitely--the way it’s being interpreted is certainly not the intention of the church at all. Okay? Um, we--maybe I could best describe it as our precepts as far as our ethics. We have a very strong ethic code and our moral code would follow something from a booklet called The Way to Happiness, which goes into the precepts of how a person would survive better. In order to survive, you have to do, um, [chuckles] to others as, you know, they would do to you. I mean, that’s an age-old gold--golden rule. And we try to treat others as we want them to treat us. That--that is something we seek to live by. That is our code. So, you know--
ROB LOREI: Is, is--let me just understand. Is it an eye for an eye or is it, um, is it treat others as you would want to be treated?
PAT JONES: It is treat others as you would want to be treated.
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