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DAVID BRUDNOY: Like Bette Davis said in "All About Eve", fasten your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride! We're gonna talk tonight about Scientology--what a thing to do, but there we are. Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin of the Boston Herald have been working for a long time on a five-part series which concludes tomorrow on the so-called "Church", end quote, of Scientology. We're gonna look at its cosmogony and its cosmology, its theogony, and that's a fancy way of saying we're gonna tell you about what they, what they believe, which is just about as lunatic as what Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam believes, even more so, actually, believe it or not. And secondly, we want to look at the way in which they entice money out of people, basically say that you can become wiser and wiser as you give us more and more money, healthier and better and so on and so forth. And finally, we want to look at how they use front groups that suck people into Scientological, shall we say, involvement without even knowing it. Gentlemen, Jim and Joe, thank you very much for being here, pleasure to have you.
JOSEPH MALLIA: Thank you for having us.
DAVID BRUDNOY: I've read the four articles thus far published in detail, enjoyed them thoroughly and, and intend to keep them and have them on file and hope that you will be producing the entire set of them for people to be able to purchase or have available in some manner, I know who may have missed one of them, and tomorrow will be the conclusion. Let us go through these three ingredients quickly and then, and then explore and invite callers as well. First, what do they believe? Or what do they say they believe?
JOSEPH MALLIA: Well, Scientology is based on the, the words--the written words and spoken words of L. Ron Hubbard. He's an American man born in 1911, died in 1986, and he was really prolific; he wrote book after book and gave lecture after lecture. And in it he describes a very intricate series of steps that one takes to become Clear and then to become an Operating Thetan. And the--they are precise instructions, and they are sold by the Church of Scientology, the, this precise services sold by the Church of Scientology here in Boston on Beacon Street and throughout the world. And, just very complicated and, and, um--
DAVID BRUDNOY: It certainly is, but tell us a little bit about what they believe about the planets and space travel and where L. Ron Hubbard ascended from this earth and then came back to tell us things and so on, so people will understand that we're dealing with a very involving series of, of, should we say, preposterous notions that nobody in his right mind would believe if he were using his right mind.
JOSEPH MALLIA: About Scientologists' believe that about 75 million years ago there was an evil warlord named Xenu who sent billions--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Not related to Xena, Warrior Princess--L. Ron Hubbard--L. Ron Hercules! (laughter) Okay, all right, Xenu, yeah, okay--
JOSEPH MALLIA: And billions of souls to Earth, which was then known as Teegeeack. And they were placed in volcanoes and then blown up with hydrogen bombs. Now those thetans are still--they still exist now and they are attached to each of us. And only through a process called auditing through the Church of Scientology can one have those thetans removed from one's body. And the thetans, um, they affect our thoughts; they make us, um, unhappy, they cause misery. And in order to tell--in order to carry out this process, what is called an e-meter is used, an electropsychometer or an electrometer, either name. And that consists of a couple of cylindrical metal, uh, objects and there is a machine that reads, I guess skin resistance and other, other physiological sensations. And, um, that's basically used in the counseling or auditing which--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Xenu and his thetans arrived 10 million years before the end of the dinosaur age, the dinosaurs having disappeared roughly 65 million years ago, so presumably Xenu and the boys were there with the dinos in the, in the (chuckling)late, uh--it wasn't Jurassic--whichever age it was, um, one of those ages. Anyway, my dino stuff isn't so good. And we are to believe that these things actually arrived from some place. Where do they come from and how did Ron encounter them when he ascended into the heavens, as it were, and engage them in conversation, or battle as the case may be?
JOSEPH MALLIA: Well, I think that, that Ron Hubbard basically, um--he does, he said that he did research in outer space without his body. Um, I know that many religions do believe in leaving the body, you know, yoga and many other beliefs and religions. L. Ron Hubbard said he did do personal research in outer space and that--and, um, I have also read that he said that when he left his body in 1986 he actually again went into outer space to continue his research. So it was through, I believe, through personal research that L. Ron Hubbard came to this point.
DAVID BRUDNOY: The use of the e-meters is the early step then in ridding oneself of these thetans that keep us from having clearer thought and better health. Your articles point out, Joe and Jim, that if you do enough of this--and we'll talk about the cost of this--that eventually you can achieve physical excellence and in fact do a variety of things including levitate, I gather.
JOSEPH MALLIA AND JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Right, yes.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Have you seen any levitating Scientologists around town? Presumably as they amble about passing out the little pamphlets, it would be really a hoot to see a fully evolved one levitating above Copley Square or perhaps downtown and Downtown Crossing and going to Jordan's or Macy's or whatever you have to call this week and purchase things magically. Have you ever--has anybody ever recorded a floating Scientologist?
JOSEPH MALLIA: No, I think--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Not that you know of?
JOSEPH MALLIA: Oh, no, I'm sorry, I have not. I do know that John Travolta--
[laughter]
DAVID BRUDNOY: You could probably put the [???????]
JOSEPH MALLIA: Yes, but in the movie "Phenomenon", John Travolta at one point does demonstrate something that I believe would be consistent with Scientology beliefs where he's being examined by an evil government psychiatrist and waves his hand and moves a pencil back and forth, asking it to move, and he uses a phrase that's very consistent with Scientology's beliefs. And as we know, as many people know that John Travolta is a, um, a prominent Scientologist.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: There is, however, a BBC video where they snuck a camera into where someone was supposed to move an ashtray; that's part of their, uh, their sacred scriptures. And it didn't happen, the ashtray didn't move.
DAVID BRUDNOY: We know the table turners and other sort of charlatans from a long time certainly were the great spurt of it in the late 19th and early 20th century moved things about and we know exactly how it is done. Now most of the--we should point out, by the way, that if you belong to a particular religion which has a serious cosmogony of the, of the origin of the universe, the cosmology and metaphysical understanding of that or theogony or theory of the origin of the gods and so on, unless you belong to it, you find out they're bizarre, and, granted that honest Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others would have to say unless you are of them, notions such as the Resurrection and the bodily ascension of Mary, the Muslims' belief that Muhammad on a white horse ascended from the Dome of the Rock into Heaven, or the Jewish belief that burning bushes, gods and so on and so forth occurred, you find it a little odd. But none of the religions that are so named as religion, as opposed to cult or scam, charge you in order to believe. Nor do they say that if you pay more money you'll become a better Catholic or Jew or Muslim, Hindu or for that matter Shinto or Jain or any of the other great religions of the Western or the Eastern world. The cost is very much a part of this as a money-making organization rather than by any logical definition of religion; but the government has so named them, which proves my point which the government is worth (laughing)--what do they charge? How good can you get for how much money, Jim and Joe? Tell us.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Well, auditing--Joseph mentioned auditing a while ago--that costs $520 an hour. And you need lots of hours to become Clear.
DAVID BRUDNOY: You can get Vernon Jordan for a lot less than that (laughter)
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Also, they have a Bridge to Total Freedom; it's in their Scientology book. These are all of the courses that you get to take. That you get up to Operating Level--what, Joseph?
JOSEPH MALLIA: It's around eight, I believe.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: And that's gonna cost you nearly $400,000. And if you don't have the money to pay for it, you pay for it with labor--full-time labor, I might add.
DAVID BRUDNOY: So in other words, presumably the richer you are, the more willing you are to contribute to the coffers of the organization; whether in Hollywood, you go to the Celebrity Centre, which I have seen, which is very interest--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Right--
DAVID BRUDNOY: They let non-celebrities go, but, very snazzy and sort of like first class on the QE2 or something; a place--basically, the more money, the healthier you can get. It suggests, then, that the kingdom of, of the rich is on Earth. It says in the, in the Bible that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But in the Scientological scam, rich men can more easily enter into--into de-thetanization and perfection and be audited into Clearness. Now, this ought to alert, alert people to the fact that this differs from religions as we know them which, whether you agree with their cosmogony and the cosmology and the theogony or not, nonetheless don't say you'll be a better Muslim if you're rich, or a better Buddhist if you spend a lot of money. Of course, every religion wants you to contribute to maintain its priests and its rabbis and its ministers and its temples and so on. But these are voluntary and the poorest Catholic is just as with God as the richest Catholic, according to Catholic theology. If people say "religion" about this organization, they ought to ask them, "Would you regard your own religion as such if it said, 'Well, poor Mr. Jones, sorry, you don't have $400,000 to get perfect so you'll just rot in semi-auditedness.'" It's a very interesting differentiation but fairly good and I'd like you to tell us and then we'll break and I would like people to join us in discussion here on WBZ. Here's the front group matter--we were, I was approached at the Libertarian convention a week and a half ago by an organization called Citizens for an Alternative Tax System. Now,I happen to agree with getting rid of the IRS and having a better system and was just about to put them on; my previous producer who has the memory of an elephant--I have the memory of a cockroach, I don't remember anything--said, "Dave, don't you remember? These are the Scientology nuts, don't you remember?" No, I didn't, so we asked you, and you said in fact they are. And your articles have pointed out a variety of things, among them things into schools, some of them public schools of Boston, some are private academies and some that are in fact front groups for the organization but don't tell you as, as such, which again violates what we know of other religions. When the Jesuits come and say, "If you give me your child [????] from 7 on to life" they don't say "By the way, we're just psychologists passing through, we are a Catholic order called the Society of Jesus." Other religions are up-front about what they are and you can have spinoffs from organized religions that nonetheless are proud to declare their allegiance to that; the Jews have their groups and the Muslims and the Buddhists and the Protestants and the rest. Why does the Church of Scientology, Joseph and Jim, hide behind front group names as if they were Communists or some other form of surreptitious organization instead of saying, "Hi! We're a Scientology front group; give us money and we'll make you happy!"?
JOSEPH MALLIA: In one very important respect, um, they are--they're not doing it in the schools because there is a separation of church and state.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Um-hmm.
JOSEPH MALLIA: We described two organizations in particular, the World Literacy Crusade and Narconon. World Literacy Crusade teaches people to read; it's--it seems like it's, that's their focus, teaching people to read--and Narconon delivers anti-drug programs. If these say to the superintendent of the Boston schools or whatever organization, "We are a religious group", he would say, "Well, you can only come into the schools as part of a curriculum on world religions, in conjunction with rabbis and other religious leaders."
DAVID BRUDNOY: Um-hmm, um-hmm.
JOSEPH MALLIA: By denying that they're part of a religious group, they do have, they're able to get entry the into schools, definitely an important thing. And they also avoid initially some of the negative baggage that the Church of Scientology carries with it. So they--we have talked about some some of the more arcane parts and esoteric parts of Scientology's beliefs, but there are a couple of basic programs. One is called the Purification Rundown; another is called Study Technology. And those are very simple and they are first steps onto the Bridge to Total Freedom. And that's what these so-called front groups--which, we haven't called them front groups but others do--that's what they're selling.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Right; for many years, the Church of Scientology has wanted to be recognized for tax purposes as a church, granted, though I think many would argue and I would argue that we should not provide different quali--different tax treatment for churches than for others. But nevertheless, we do it for the organized religions. Temporally, it should be remarked that one of the great fundraising cadres for the Clinton folk has been the Hollywood liberals, among them people like John Travolta, a good friend of the president; and that it is argued, though not proved, that perhaps there was pressure put from the White House on the Justice Department to declare the, this organization a religion. I don't believe that either you or I or anybody can at this point prove it, but perhaps Kenneth Starr in the 98th year of his studies will find out that in fact the U.S. has declared this organization a religion for tax purposes in order, perhaps, to continue the fundraising that the Democrats have so brilliantly done with people including Buddhist nuns. Now, I want to open this discussion with Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin to you, the WBZ listeners, and understand that I do not come to this neutrally. I'll tell you, 33 years ago in Houston when I was teaching there, I met a man named Herb, a friend of my friend Patricia and me. And this man was, um, into Scientology early on--Dianetics, I think it might have even been called at that point--and they were sucking every penny out of him. He was diagnosed by his doctor with cancer who wanted him to be treated as such. He instead was urged by the Scientologists to continue the practice and the writing of checks that he wrote, every penny that he had to them went to Washington for the final stages of auditing--that is to say, becoming better and healthier and poorer. And, um, by the time he finally realized it was a catastrophe, came back and listened to his doctor and died because it was too late to do any good for him. Whether he would have lived or not with the medical technology of 1964, I don't know; but it is certain that he was kept by his Scientological advisors not to waste money with doctors but instead to spend it on them, and I have felt ever since that this organization deserves exposure. It has been done in Time magazine, which survived a huge suit against it. Dan Kennedy, my good friend and the inestimable media writer for the Boston Phoenix has dealt with the subject; others have as well. But it's been a while, and I am delighted that the Boston Herald has taken many, many pages and I presume an enormous amount of man-hours from both Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin to put this together. So there it is. Now, our number is 254-1030, the area code is 617. Time currently 7:22 and the temperature in Boston right now is a beautiful 49 degrees. We'll be back with you. Call now; Joseph and Jim are here during this hour; it's a good time to get into the discussion. We'll be back right after this on WBZ.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
DAVID BRUDNOY: We are back with Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin from the Boston Herald. The entire series, by the way, will very shortly be on the--on the Net, on bostonherald.com if you have the Internet availability available to read it in that way, and will be reprinted also in what I consider the appropriate way to read things, which is sitting with a glass of wine in a comfortable chair under a tree and reading it! Um, our guests are Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin; Joseph is the writer and Jim is his editor on the series at hand. Let's go on to some calls with you on WBZ. Dick, good evening on WBZ with Joseph and Jim.
DICK (caller): Good evening, David and your guests, hi. Uh, the series has been captivating, but I just wanted to say a quick anecdote based on David's comment on the front groups. In previous lives I was in talk radio much as yourself, and we were constantly barraged by these front groups to put them on the air, and, you know, little-known names such as, you know, Organization to Administer [???????] and there's all kinds of crazy names. And one of them, one of their big topics is not giving children anti-depressant drugs such as Ritalin and so forth--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Yeah.
DICK (caller): Well, after we had these organizations on the air once or twice, we began to investigate, and they were Scientologists. And they're really insidious in their efforts to, uh, to get in the media unbeknownst to, uh, a lot of reporters and a lot of writers. So I think you're definitely doing a great service in terms of exposing these front groups.
DAVID BRUDNOY: I'm among those who, who put the Narconon people on. Very pleasant fellow, I forget his name, we had on many times; I thought it was interesting because I have doubts exactly about other approaches and then really backed off when I realized that they--again, they're not being frank with us; and also--and this goes way back to, to my time at WHH radio in the mid '70s and thereafter--from the people obsessed by this Ritalin thing. And I talked with doctors who treat children especially, and they say Ritalin is one of the most remarkable things for the bulk of children, but like every drug, some people find side effects that aren't cordial. This is true of every single major drug so if--it became a major obsession on their part, and I realized they were being so ideological because they wanted people to spend money for their approach to treating children who have problems. Gentlemen, anything you'd like to say to Dick or ask of him?
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: No, thank you for your--the vote of support, though.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Dick, you there?
DICK (caller): Yeah--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Okay--
DICK (caller): Okay, thank you, David.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Thank you very much, sir, appreciate it. It's 7:28; our number 254-1030. The Boston Herald here tonight in the form of, of Jim MacLaughlin and Joseph Mallia. Lee, good evening, you're on WBZ. Hi, there.
LEE (caller): Hi.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Hi, Lee.
LEE (caller): How are you?
DAVID BRUDNOY: We're fine, how are you?
LEE (caller): Good.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Good.
LEE (caller): I'm one of the parents that Mr.--I hope that I don't pronounce it wrong--Mallia--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Mallia, yeah.
LEE (caller): --interviewed.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Okay.
LEE (caller): Um, and I'm not sure if this is really what you want to talk about, but my, um, opinion that I wanted to say was, the article--my daughter was a student at Delphi Academy, and she's been there for four years. And before I--I'm sorry?
DAVID BRUDNOY: Yes, go ahead.
LEE (caller): Before, um, I enrolled her in Delphi, I went--I checked out the school, I checked out other schools before I made my decision. My decision was not based on Scientology and I don't have any issue with anybody who wants to check them out or whatever. But mine was based on an academic curriculum for my daughter, and they have by far the best academic program that I had checked out. It was a structured program. My daughter--daughter started there for kindergarten in September; by December, she was reading. It's strictly based on the academic program. So my quote was, was kind of out of context because what I had said was, um, that any school, it didn't matter what school it was--any school that has my child full time--I'm the type of parent that's an in-your-face parent and I'll be up there to check out how the school rates and to be involved. See--excuse me--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Um-hmm.
LEE (caller): The other part of the article that was so offensive was, strictly on the Delphi issue, was, it made me sound as if minority parents do not have the intelligence to make their own decision about what school they enroll their children in; that we have to be hoodwinked or we have to be recruited; that wasn't simply with women and fathers and so forth basing their decision on checking out other schools.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Well, Lee, let me take that one. Um--
LEE (caller): Okay, and who--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: This is Jim MacLaughlin.
LEE (caller): Oh, okay.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Um, we have no quarrel, or we don't have a big quarrel with the quality of education you're getting down there. There are some problems with, uh, the books they are using to teach your children, your child with. Um--
LEE (caller): Okay.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: But--
LEE (caller): What do you think is the problem?
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Well--first of all, we, we took the book to a Harvard professor who took a look at it and said there's nothing new there. It's--it's methods that have been used for 30 years. They are--in fact they are quite basic methods. There is nothing--although the church calls it innovative, this Study Tech, calls it innovative, and it also claims that it will raise your I.Q. by--one person said 22 points. The president of the Church of Scientology International, Heber Jentzsch, said it raised his by 34%. Um, we just don't believe that. We have people who say that's just not true. So we have some problem with what they are being taught, but no quarrel with the quality--the teachers, that they're committed, that you as a parent care for your child, and, and want to get the best education you can. As for talking down, if you will, to, to blacks--that's not the case; we just didn't do that. What we're pointing out is that the church is recruiting minorities, and this is one of the ways they're doing it.
LEE (caller): One of the ways they're doing it is recruiting them by targeting minority families, is what you're saying?
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Yes.
LEE (caller): But I think that the majority of folks that are at Delphi, the parents, and I'm my [????] Parents Association for two years at Delphi because we're both pretty active parents. But, um, a lot of the parents that come in are through word of mouth.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Um-hmm.
LEE (caller): And it's not necessarily word of mouth through the church--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Um-hmm, that's good--
LEE (caller): Because I don't have any connection to the church at all.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Um-hmm.
LEE (caller): It's word of mouth just through the fact that we found a school that has a good academic program, and we pass that on to the next person and--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Right--
LEE (caller): --the next mother who has a child of school age.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Right. One of the things we know is that they advertise the school through their summer camp and through bulk mailings, neither of which mention the Church of Scientology. That's our quarrel with, with the church in many ways. They don't let you know what you're getting into. Now, you may have been told up front that this was a--
LEE (caller): Right away, I was.
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Okay, but you told about something different, uh that--but we have talked to parents who said they were not told. You read Dr. Leo Woodward's--
LEE (caller): Dr. Leo Woodward, right--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Dr. Woodward's comments that he was not told--
LEE (caller): [?????????] and mine were being taken out of context, I don't know if Dr. Woodward's was taken out of context, but let me just say this--
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: It wasn't.
LEE (caller): Dr. Woodward had a son there for four years. You mean to tell me for four years he didn't know that the school--that it was Scientology connected?
JIM MacLAUGHLIN: Well, no, he said after his son was enrolled; we don't know exactly when after, but he didn't learn it up front. He was told later.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Lee, thank you. We'll be back right after this on WBZ news radio 1030.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
DAVID BRUDNOY: We are back, and we're talking with two representatives of the Boston Herald, Joseph Mallia and Jim MacLaughlin. We're talking about their five-part series concluding tomorrow on Scientology. It will be on the Web in a few days at bostonherald.com. Let's go back to your calls. In South Boston, Michael? Michael, you're on WBZ. Good evening, sir.
MICHAEL (caller): How are you?
DAVID BRUDNOY: I'm fine, go ahead, please.
MICHAEL (caller): Um, I just wanted to kind of discuss an incident I had with the Scientology group several years ago.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Um-hmm.
MICHAEL (caller): Um, I was--I kind of have a problem with them--well, not a problem, but a beef with them. Um, I really kind of appreciate having this article in the paper and I want to thank you gentlemen for doing it.
DAVID BRUDNOY: Um-hmm, yeah.
MICHAEL (caller): Um, I was--one day I was, I missed an afternoon train and I had some time to kill and was up down on Newbury Street by Hereford Avenue, and I was approached by a person who was asked if we had some free time--I was with a girl I had been commuting with and I--they had asked us if we had free time and if we would be interested in taking a personality test. We had some time and we said, "Sure" and they took us down to their facility there. And we walked in the door and, to be perfectly honest, it looked like an L. Ron Hubbard bookstore. Um, and then, uh, they took us into a room, and we sat down and they gave us some pencils and then plunked this piece of paper in front of us, and it turned out to be a 200-question examination, to be perfectly honest. And I compared to the DSAT in that it [???] involved. And they closed the door behind us and we heard a door click, actually, and we--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Oh, dear God! (laughing)
MICHAEL (caller): I kind of looked at the girl I was with, and she said, "Nah" and seemed kind of--we didn't really vocalize it but said, "Nah, they couldn't have locked us in here." I went through the, um, the questionnaire, and I've seen the questionnaire on their web site which is all 200 questions of it. And about 15 minutes into it I kind of get the feeling that it's a little too intrusive, and decided that I wasn't comfortable with it, and she was a little nervous. So we got up and I went up to the door, and indeed it was locked. So I knocked on the door and--
DAVID BRUDNOY: Dear God, they really locked you up--
MICHAEL (caller): Yeah, yeah. So I pounded on it, and the person who had basically solicited us off the street kind of cracked the door open. And the door had opened out and his foot was pressed against it because I was kind of pushing on it.
DAVID BRUDNOY: [whistles] Oh, boy--
MICHAEL (caller): And I said, you know, "I feel real uncomfortable with this, I'd like to go." And they said, "No, no, no, don't worry about it, why don't you just go ahead and finish it up?" and it was like, you know, the time constraints, it took us so long to get through some of it, it was just--it looked like it was gonna be more than I had anticipated.
JOSEPH MALLIA: Did you still not know that it was the Church of Scientology?
MICHAEL (caller): I knew it was--it, you know, I didn't know it was the Church of Scientology because it didn't really act like a church, um, or, you know, a church that I've known. Um, it just seemed like they were really into the Dianetics thing which, to be perfectly honest, I only knew from the television commercials. Um, but I ended up--they ended up closing the door and re-locking it on me and I pounded on the door, and the girl I was with, she was crying, she was so scared. Um, I actually had to kick the door open, and, you know, a lobby full of people were all staring at us, and I was screaming, you know, "What the hell are you people doing here and, you know, locking us in here?" and I said, "This is, you know, this has gotta be some sort of a weird cult!" and I ended up traipsing out the door. To this day I've had nothing but a poor taste in my mouth with the experience.
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